Having said that, this is something to think about when it comes to communication choices in light of the upcoming California AB 2072 bill. Candy has a good bead on this as well. The AB 20727 bill states that:
Parents of all newborns and infants diagnosed with a hearing loss shall also be provided written or electronic information on American Sign Language (ASL), Total Communication, Cued Speech, and Listening and Spoken Language communication options for children with hearing loss, including, but not limited to, information about deaf and hard-of-hearing organizations, agencies and early intervention centers, and educational programs.No conspiracy theory.
No mystery to this bill.
Just a straight up requirement that parents be given information for a wide selection of communication and educational choices be made available to them after the discovery of their newborn or infant with a hearing loss.
The irony is this. There are certain groups of Deaf people who seem to be undergoing an effort to derail this bill. And instead promote that ASL must be the first option for any parents of a deaf or hard of hearing child. Thusly leaving out any real choices for parents to decide. Nevermind the fact that this bill would make a requirement that these parents be given the necessary information so they could make a proper and informed decision on communication and educational options. An option that could involve one communication method or more.
Back to the "F*ck you" thread. This father explained in her first post on what he and his wife had to do based on information available at the time to help her deaf daughter.
We gave our daughter cochlear implants when she was an infant. We made this long and difficult decision based on the research that was available to us, based on the educational resources available in our area, based on the nature of her deafness, and, yes, based on our own biases and desires. She had her surgeries before she was old enough to make the choice for herself, because to wait so long means to give her hearing long after her developing brain can make the best use of it. It is a well-known and long-researched phenomenon that pre-lingual implantation leads to vastly improved speech and hearing skills. But you call it child abuse. You call it cosmetic surgery on an infant, and more than once you called me a monster for it. It is not child abuse, to make complicated decisions about your kids without their input - it's called parenting. Nor is it cosmetic to give my kid a developmental boost. So: f*ck you for heaping accusations of pre-lingual cosmetic surgery child abuse on me.This AB 2072 bill will help alleviate the uncertainty for parents of a deaf/hh child in making an informed decision for the first time. But for groups to purposely derail this bill for the sake of demanding that ASL be given first priority and requirement for parents to follow are certainly not about parental choice but about control. Doing that could very well certainly earn the Deaf community many more "f**** you's" from hearing parents of deaf and hard of hearing children.
Our family is learning ASL, and have been since we learned our daughter was profoundly deaf. We will use sign as a second language, indefinitely. My wife is in school to become an interpreter. Nor do we believe in a purely oralist tradition; we acknowledge the importance of communication between deaf people without assistance. We get it, ok? We're committed. But because we gave our daughter cochlear implants, you automatically believe that we're out to destroy ASL, to destroy Deaf culture. You never listen to our reasoning, because what do we know? We're motivated by a desire to mingle in both worlds, and yet we're constantly scoffed at by the Deafies on principle. So: f*** you for your pernicious false dichotomies.
Give the parents the opportunity to make an informed decision for their deaf/hh child. Give them the respect and understanding they deserve. And understand that whatever informed decision they make, they still deserve our respect and support. It doesn't matter if you don't like their informed decision, they deserve our respect. Walking all over them and taking away their choices aren't the answer.
55 comments:
Bravo! I think the hearing mother couldn't have said this more succinctly. Who knew that false dichotomies from those who opposed AB 2072 would come back and bite them? Well, I don't know about you, but I sure saw it coming.
This is why I didn't "support" opposing this bill. I didn't see anything wrong with this bill. Rather, I'd support this bill. Nothing wrong with getting ALL the information. At least ASL IS mentioned as an option. If anything, this bill will ENSURE that ASL will be mentioned as an option, so opposing this bill will not do anyone any good. In the past, ASL wasn't even mentioned as an option, I'm sure. So, be grateful that this bill will even ensure that ASL will be mentioned as an option. Just my 2 cents worth.
That's the sad thing about this. ASL was NOT included in the original bill. Because of these "fanatic" groups (as you make them sound), ASL was added to this bill.
HOWEVER, ASL is NOT the reason the "fanatics" have fought AB2072. I'm disappointed that you, Pundit, would continue to push this thought on your readers. The issue these "fanatics" are fighting is that the bill is inherently biased and inherently vague and thus would not create a blanced view for anyone.
Last--I'm sorry these parents experienced what they did, but it is hardly fair to label people in the Deaf community based on the actions of a few. Most Deaf peoople would not act the way the parents mentioned in their letter.
I know! I know! I know!
Using false dichotomies can be very smart but dangerous in some ways. Like I said in Amy Cohen Efron's recent blog, "Dichotomous Thinking Can Harm Us."
I would not want to deal with dichotomies because of the revelations without thinking of themselves for hiding their personal secrets. Are they doing their good job? Of course not!
Realized that the thread by Subway Prophet was posted on July 1st, 2008, way before the bill AB 2072 appeared. He knew what his observations was all about throughout the internet. No conspiracy theories at all. He ain't that stupid enough. This hearing father knew what they were doing the best for their daughter's lives.
Obviously, this father and his wife *fully* received the options. It shows us a lot.
White Ghost
DJ, it was the father who did the posting, not the mother. I noticed I missed one error and changed it to "father."
And before anybody get ahead of themselves, the hearing father already regretted what he said initially in his first post. Again, this what many hearing parents are experiencing and feeling when it comes to making their own informed decision and get pissed on for that from the few in the Deaf community. That doesn't exactly paint a nice picture for the whole of the community, does it?
The inclusion of ASL into the bill a second time around was agreed to yet it's the irony that some Deaf people want to see that bill not passed. The sponsor of the bill listened, added ASL to it, yet some Deaf people are trying to destroy this bill!
If that's not a recipe for irony then I don't know what is.
"Most Deaf peoople would not act the way the parents mentioned in their letter."
He regretted for the gross over-generalization against the Deaf commmunity. He acknowledged that. Can you say the same for the few Deaf people who go after "hearies" or the hearing community telling them that they can "f*ck off"....?
Can you name one example?
Nothing "inherently biased" if the bill requires that parents of deaf/hh newborn or babies get all of the needed information so as to make their own informed decision on what to do next. The bill does include ASL. What more do you want? Instead of supporting the bill people want to destroy it and remake it in your own version that puts ASL in front first rather than simply allow parents the full choices to decide on what's best for their deaf/hh child. It's about making an informed decision.
The F*ck You Deaf People thread was inspirational! It was a breath of fresh air! I also laughed.
"ASL is, simply, fragmented." Yes! Even, I, a "deaf cultured hoh person" have always believed that to be true.
Although that comment should not be taken to mean I have disrespect for ASL.
Thanks for the shout out.
;)
Instead of "F*ck the Deaf Community", that the hearing father already regretted, maybe it should be more of "F*ck the Mask of Benevolence Community".
I think that we need to start hearing from parents of 18 year old Deaf children that were forbidden to learn sign language and how they(majority, not a few) are doing in schools and if they still using hearing devices.
The truth needs to be revealed and many of us know that these "Mask of Benevolence" groups or organizations are working hard to keep their monetary ideology floating rather than revealing the reality of what is really going on. There are too many Deaf children are not happy being oralist.
Monetary is more important than Morality. And that is really sad!!!!
I realize I might have caused others to misread my statement.
I laughed because I understood exactly what the father was getting at. Mostly I laughed because many things he said was true and that he had the guts to come out and say F Y. The fact that he regretted how he came out the way he said it to the Deaf community, tells me that he needed to vent and he did. I really applaud him for coming out the way he did. The Deaf community need to see what kind of impression they have made on the hearing parent.
John, firstly they are not "D"eaf children. You don't get to decide who is deaf and who is Deaf. This is about giving parents all the necessary information to make an informed decision for their deaf/hh child. And if that ends up not using ASL, then so be it. I respect the parents' informed decision. You should, too.
Mike--
I use Deaf all the time. I never use deaf, no matter what. That is my personal belief, just like I always capitalize Blacks when I talk about African Americans and capitalize Hispanics and White people, ETC.
John may feel the same. I don't know his purpose for using Deaf, but it's not your place to criticize him for using "D"eaf.
Spencer, it is my place to criticize. Hearing loss range from mild to profound. The capital "D" signifies culturally Deaf and has been for quite some time. It also gives the impression of laying the claim that the Deaf communty have "ownership" over such children. Hogwash.
Mike,
These (most) Deaf children will become part of our Deaf community!
I hear these Deaf people everyday about how their lives have been treated and how these "Mask of Benevolence" dominated their parents of how they came out to be in majority of the case.
Mike, you are one of the few that made it and there are majority that failed.
How can we or you be selfish enough to promote the few and ignore the most.
That is AGBell style, many failed and they dumped them at the Deaf schools and blamed sign language and the Deaf school system.
Majority of the Deaf people in the Deaf community were deprived of their language acquisition at the beginning and by damn, Mike, you are not one of them but yet you continue to gratify yourself and the few and disregard the most that their parents were not able to achieve to nurtured their normal Deaf child.
Should we focus on the majority that failed and help them by improving the system?
John, again, you don't speak for all children with hearing loss which can range from mild to profound hearing loss. I don't consider myself a Deaf person but simply a deaf, hh or a person with a hearing loss.
There are successes and failures on both ends. Getting into conspiracy theories do not help here, at least not with me. Deaf schools had their chances over the last two decades since DPN. For example, results in the California Standards Test (STAR) for deaf schools such as Riverside, Fremont have shown atrocious scores for grades K - 12.
"The underachievement of our state's deaf and hard-of-hearing students is of grave concern.
Only 8 percent of our deaf students and 15 percent of our hard-of-hearing students score proficient or advanced on the California Standards Test for English-language arts.
In math, only 10 percent of our deaf students and 18 percent of our hard-of-hearing students score proficient or advanced. "
http://www.cde.ca.gov/eo/in/se/agdeaf.asp
This well way below the expected average. Yet 20 years later, there has hardly been any improvements in terms of academic results for these kids in California Schools for the Deaf. Why? Don't blame AGBell thing since it's a cop-out. Many kids enter the schools during the K, 1st or 2nd grades and continue from there on.
I appreciated the link, simply because of what this commenter, Lemur886, had to say and I am copying and pasting what he or she said. It is spot on!
"All right, I'll provide a bit of context for people who can't understand why in the world there would even be such a thing as "Deaf Culture".
The thing is, if you're blind, or in a wheelchair, or have severe halitosis, you're still able to talk to your parents. But most parents of deaf kids are hearing, and don't sign even a little bit. And while deaf people can learn to vocalize, and can learn to lip read, and so on, the reality for most deaf people throughout history is that the deaf person is profoundly isolated, not just from the larger community, but from their own family.
So while there generally might be enough communication to tell the kid to go to bed, brush their teeth, do their homework, mow the lawn, or find out where the owie is, the in-depth communication that we take for granted often just doesn't happen. Discussion about life, emotions, and so on...just don't happen. And the kid misses out on all the conversations happening around them...the hearing kids at the dinner table might not pay much attention when Aunt Bertha describes her bunion operation, but they hear it...they learn that such a thing as a bunion exists, that there's an operation for it, that Aunt Bertha is an insufferable bore, that you have to be polite to insufferable bores, and so on. But deaf kids mostly miss out on that sort of cultural osmosis.
And in the past, the solution to all this was...boarding schools. Ship the kid off to boarding school. Well, you have a kid who's isolated from his family, isolated from the larger community, what do you expect will happen when you ship them to boarding school? They'll identify with the people they CAN communicate with. They'll identify first as Deaf, because what other alternative would there be?
And the mistrust old-school Deaf Culture people have towards the deaf educational establishment? Well, let's put it this way. Who decides what sort of education deaf children get? Their hearing parents. And what do the hearing parents typically know about deaf education? Nothing. And so what sort of education did hearing parents preferentially choose for their deaf kids? The sort of education that minimized sign language. The kind of education where kids who signed had their hands tied, because if they could sign, then they wouldn't be motivated to learn to vocalize and lip read. Deaf culture people have an over-the-top fanatical devotion to ASL because many of them were educated in environments where the use of ASL was not only discouraged, it was punished harshly.
(this comment wouldn't allow me to copy and paste it all, here is the rest)
And while some deaf kids learn to vocalize pretty well, and some deaf kids learn to lip-read pretty well, it's not typical. If you're profoundly deaf, and were enrolled in an oralist-only boarding school, the typical outcome is that you're pushed out the door at 18 with your entire education being a waste of time. You can barely speak, you can barely lip-read, you're barely literate in English, and the only real way you have to communicate is through sign language, which you had to do IN SECRET or the teachers would punish you!
And ironically, literacy among deaf people is/was terrible, for various reasons...you can't teach reading via phonics, the kids often have terrible language skills to begin with, how do you teach them to read words they don't even know, you're spending hours every day teaching vocalization rather than reading, and on and on. So you don't even have written language to fall back on.
The reason that Deaf people are often so over-the-top critical of hearing parents of deaf kids, is that hearing parents often make poor choices for their deaf kids out of ignorance. So the Deaf people think, "hey, I'm deaf, I know what deafness is about better than the clueless parent, the parent is going to screw up and doom their kid to misery". But of course, the Deaf person who had a horrible educational experience isn't neccesarily a good judge either.
Now, Oralist-only education is pretty much thoroughly discredited nowadays. But...cochlear implants can often give deaf kids enough hearing that many hearing parents decide that their kid isn't deaf anymore. They're cured. And so sign language is out, mainstreaming is in. But the reality is that cochlear implants have a mixed success rate. Sure, something is better than nothing, but often oralism-only is going to fail for kids with cochlear implants. But parents have the idea that their kid MUST be able to interact with the wider world, and they are correct that growing up not able to speak and understand spoken english is terribly limiting. But it might not be a realistic goal, even with cochlear implants. And if the parent is convinced that their kid isn't deaf, and that signing is a "crutch" that will inhibit their ability to vocalize and lip read, then you have a recipe for disaster.
And this is why there's so much political bullshit surrounding deafness. The stakes are so high, and the people making the decisions often don't make informed decisions, and the people who have experienced poor decisions made for them often aren't in a position to make informed decisions themselves."
I thought that was a very well said comment for what its worth.
Wow. Strong words. Eventually that guy's daughter will turn up at an HLAA, ALDA or IFHOH Convention. She'll fit right in with the rest of us oral deaf people. No one will care how she communicates. Since more than 2/3 of all deaf people are oral deaf, she'll be in good company. ;-) I've met many, many like her.
My empathy too would be with the parent on this. The continued moral blackmail from some 'Deaf' areas and the blanket assumption parents are ill-informed or forcing things on children is simply untrue in most cases. He's researched what here is, is not against sign use, but overall it staying deaf isn't good enough for his child, end of.
Perhaps the negativity from the cultural area wasn't all that positive either, they are still failing to 'prove' how marvellous being deaf and having a deaf life is. They need to re-appraise deaf awareness, it certainly is not working.
kim -
"Wow. Strong words. Eventually that guy's daughter will turn up at an HLAA, ALDA or IFHOH Convention. She'll fit right in with the rest of us oral deaf people. No one will care how she communicates."
Are some of you not reading this post? Or at least all of it? The father is teaching his daughter ASL and her family is learning and using ASL. Plus, his wife is in school to be an interpreter.
The point is, because he decided to implant her, he is being attacked by some people involved in the deaf community. Using ASL and wanting to be involved with Deaf Culture is not enough for some people. Understandably, he was pissed.
Some people are missing the point of this post.
(e
I'm not missing the point of the post!
The point of the post is that he's a frustrated father in a difficult situation. And because there isn't one person in the hearing community he feels comfortable lashing out at, he lashes out at the easily-identifiable deaf community.
Everything he says can be flipped on its side and pointed in the other direction. Hearing parents - like his, like mine - are often caught in the middle.
So don't hate the dad - think: what can the Deaf community do to solve his problems?
For starters, why doesn't the DBC put five years of free ASL lessons on its website? (I know, free means they don't get paid - but it would mean more parents learn ASL!)
And by the way - Candy? Really? Do you call your automobile a car or a junker or a lemon? An auto, automobile, bucket, buggy, bus, clunker, compact, convertible, conveyance, coupe, gas guzzler, hardtop, hatchback, heap, jalopy, jeep, limousine, machine, motor, motorcar, pickup, ride*, roadster, sedan, station wagon, subcompact, touring car, truck, van, wagon, wheels, or wreck?
Yes, because ASL has more than one word for "car," ASL is broken.
Eskimos have several hundred words for snow. Snow must be broken. (It's certainly fragmented!)
Johnny 'boy' Egbert, try and make me hit my 'shift' + 'd' keys. Better yet, being deafless that I am, I thought I'd point something out for you. It's not the deafness that makes the man. We're more than that therefore your so-called 'D' world is nothing more than a closed society that's falling apart, thanks to information age.
Oh, I know. I know. You'll never understand.
"These (Most) Deaf children will always part of our Deaf community!"
Ha, John! Thanks but 'N'o Thanks!
I rather to stay 'd'eaf for the rest of my life. That's who I am right now. So don't tell me or others what to do. We are *not* puppets.
Even with the hearing loss in late-age people. They would not accept the capital letter 'D'.
Face and accept it, John Eggbert
Tough Luck.
White Ghost
What was your reaction upon seeing the Uncle Sam picture? Your feelings, thoughts, and interpretation about the meaning of the picture.
Yeah, Mike, it represents the freedom of express but we follow the law with respect. I know what the hearing Father meant to be.....
Capital 'D' does not have the law, thus, we don't have to follow the law.
The hearing Father knows it.
White Ghost
Well, that's one interpretation.
Folks, what was your reaction upon seeing the Uncle Sam picture? Your feelings, thoughts, and interpretation about the meaning of the picture
Valhallian....your comment was spot on
thanks for posting it
Mike... If you do your research, you will find
that the statistic you quoted included ALL program
that have Deaf and HH students. Not take in
account that 85% + are mainstreamed. That
pretty much explains where the system is crippling
Deaf (yes D for all is my belief) students. Now
look at how many Deaf students transfer to Deaf
Schools already behind in language. So to
blame Deaf Schools is not based on any facts.
JT....Great idea to give parents free ASL classes. Most
Deaf schools offer them for free. Oh by the way,
DBC has a good list of ASL resources on their website.
If you donate to DBC, then maybe they could afford to
provide ASL classes. Oh and also please note
that DBC is all volunteers who are not paid and most
donate not only their time but their own money. The only paid service is the website.
Re: AB2072
Please read the bill. It has nothing to do with
making sure us hearing parents get all the communication
options. Notice "free to the state"..... WHO is paying
is not spelled out. Pretty crafty. Only those with
money. Well hmmm wonder who that will be?
Will it come from organizations made up of parents
with young Deaf children telling the " entire" Deaf
Community to "f@!k off??? Well that sure will be
some good unbiased info to give parents on all communication options. I can't wait to see it.
For me it simply represents the Government wanting our soul. lol It was originally meant 'we want you!' for war effort. That's asking Americans to voluntarily serve their country...ergo deaf ASL community is voluntary as well.
I'm looking at AB2072 as a great opportunity for the Deaf Community (i.e., ASL users, culturally Deaf) to network with the larger hearing community and especially with professionals who encounter deaf individuals in their work, such as audiologists and ENT physicians. CSD published a very nice brochure about the school and they could easily mail the brochures to all the doctors and audiologists in the state as part of their outreach efforts. It's in their budget anyway.
The very best way to publicize the advantages of ASL and the Deaf Community is to be a positive and attractive model to the hearing community. I work at a state school myself and have heard many parents say how happy their child is at our school after years in the mainstream. Those parents will talk to other parents and people in their social sphere. Our school not only made them feel welcome and a part of the community, but we also cherish their child. We convey that being deaf is OK and that we accept all deaf people no matter where they came from. By coming to school meetings and seeing how everybody can communicate directly with the child, parents are inspired to learn ASL themselves. It's a win-win situation.
Hi Mike: you asked for feedback or comment about the Uncle Sam image. I'm guessing Uncle Sam represents the California state government saying FY to the Deaf Community by passing AB2072? I didn't have any particular reaction to it. maybe I've become jaded. heh.
Gee, California's schools for the deaf have been using ASL for the past 30 years and the deaf people blame low reading scores on oralism? I know many deaf people who came from deaf parents and they still have poor reading skills. Even when CSDR touted it's bi-bi approach, its STAR test scores dropped. Why don't I hear of it as often as I used to? Strange.
Capitalizing Deaf, Blind, Autistic, Paralyzed.. no, it is deaf, blind, autistic, paralyzed because it is grammatically correct. And deaf people can learn the sound of the word which helps reading skills. Cued speech is the way to go. I do not know Cued, but it shows a lot of promise. ASL is not strong enough to be a language, signing scared, startled, horrified, spooked all are the same. There's no meat in ASL.
from one Anonymous to another :) I think it's a shame that ASL is getting bandied about as the miracle cure for the problem of acquiring English literacy for those who cannot hear it. ASL isn't the sole factor in predicting whether or not a deaf individual will become proficient in English. I heard recently about research conducted at CSD on the relationship of ASL proficiency to reading/English proficiency. The correlation is low, but still statistically significant.
I disagree that ASL has no "meat." it is possible to convey nuances in ASL as well as English. ASL is a language, after all, or didn't you know? The difference is that it's a visual-spatial language, rather than a spoken or orthographic language. Users of ASL can always fingerspell if they want to use a specific English word.
Some deaf people have been very happy and successful (in English literacy) with cued speech. just like some deaf people have been very happy and successful with ASL, signed English, oral only, S.E.E., and so on. One size does not fit all.
Actually, anonymous, there have been many studies that show ASL has a strong correlation with English skills: reading, writing, AND spoken.
Cued speech is not intended to be used as a sole approach, but along with ASL to teach gramattical patterns. People have used cued speech in the wrong way over the years.
Last, but not least, cued speech has proven to be ineffective when used alone.
Deaf educators know this--they've studied Deaf education for years. The facts are out there, but unfortunately, they're often only learned by those in the field of Deaf education.
@e) Yeah-- I got that. :-) The parents are supportive of their daughter. In an effort to keep my message short I decided to get right to the point above and perhaps wasn't clear enough.
The majority of all deaf people speak. Now that the CI has been around for a couple decades, we're seeing more and more young, implanted people show up at our HLAA and ALDA meetings-- typically reserved for older hh and deaf people in the past. These young implantees tend to be well rounded, confident, and mostly show up only because they're interested in advocacy issues. By and large, no one in HLAA or ALDA cares whether you sign or don't sign. Interestingly, no one really cares if you're late-deafened at ALDA despite that it's supposed to be for late-deafened adults. The attitude seems to be 'the more, the merrier.' No one cares of you have a minor speech impediment or if you sign, or cue or whatever. The oral deaf community is far less 'cliquish' than the Deaf community. Hierarchy is not based on whether you had Deaf parents or whether you've snubbed your nose at the implant, (or whether your parents have snubbed the implant) It's based on how much responsibility you take on and your basic character.
Therefore the arguments that parents who implant their children are denying them access to Deaf culture is all just nonsense. These kids have access to a beautiful "culture"-- the hearing culture, and they also have access to support from other implantees of all ages in HLAA and ALDA, and numerous other orgs.
It sounds to me like this girl has the best of both worlds.
JR, actually I spell out a specific word for my automobile. But, I get your point. There are so many signs for one word. However, when fragmented ASL comes to mind, I was thinking more beyond words. I have yet see any ASL grammar rules in print.
This whole ASL as a language is kind of murky and messy. You just need to watch how people sign. You'll notice that deaf people with better English tend to use ASL in English order and those that do not have such good English will use ASL in a very fragmented order.
_________
Spencer, you owe me a cite on that AGBell claim you left on my blog. Pay it up.
Kim, I understand your comment now. :) I totally misunderstood what you said for some reason. I get it now!
(e
"f*ck you" on father and mother with CI daughter.. "It is not child abuse, to make complicated decisions about your kids without their input - it's called parenting. Nor is it cosmetic to give my kid a developmental boost. So: f*ck you for heaping accusations of pre-lingual cosmetic surgery child abuse on me."
I wonder If I, a mother wants to remove hair cells in my child's cochlea, will it be consider a child abuse?
What are you talking about, Candy?!? There are plenty of grammar rules in ASL written down. The first person that proved ASL is a language, William Stokoe, started with basic ASL grammatical rules. Over the years, there have been plenty of books and papers published with ASL grammar rules, syntax, semantics, etc.
If you take the time to really do your research and study languages, you'll discover that ASL is a much richer and more complex language than English. English is the language that has limited word choices/vocabulary and limited syntax.
Anonymous,
What rule? Everyone isn't following the ASL grammar rules if you haven't notice it. I'm willing to bet other linguicists without any bias towards ASL would be able to challenge Stokoe.
I have seen some of these books, problem here is no one is on the same page with ASL rules.
Start watching how people use ASL.
I grew up in an ASL signing, deaf cultured family. Don't need to discover anything. This is something that has bothered me all these years. I tend to watch closely, how people use ASL. Not talking about regional signs at all. Just my view.
@Hedy-- You've used that example before and it creeps me out. Removing something that is already there is not the same thing as aiding hearing with an implanted device. Adding is not the same as subtracting. That's like saying, since it's OK feed a child too much, then it should also be OK to starve him. Your logic makes no sense.
Right, Kim.
Why damage something? Why damage a good ear? Deaf person's ear was already damaged due to gene, illness, etc. But a healthy ear should not be damaged.
Right. Kind of like purposely to try and damage your kid's eyesight just so they'd be more like the mother or father who is sight-impaired. It'd be child abuse rather than neglect.
RLM needs to calm down and re-read what Mike wrote. What mike wrote shed some good insight and how people need to think about hearing parents' perception about the whole thing as well when it comes to getting the needed information and how they are treated by Deaf people and the community. Once you lose hearing parents' attention or interest, then there's not much of a chance of gaining them back or earn their trust. RLM failed to see the bigger picture here.
DM
Candy--Your comment to anonymous had several English grammatical errors. Does that mean your English is bad and does not follow English grammatical rules?
Most Deaf people are, unfortunately, not taught ASL grammar rules so it's not fair to say they don't follow them. Native signers do, naturally, and the rules that are written down re: ASL grammar and syntax have never quite changed. They've been amended, expanded, and re-evaluated. That's normal for any new language--and ASL is a new language in the grand scheme of things.
There have been quite a few that have challenged Stokoe and none have succeeded in proving that ASL is NOT a language.
Are all communication mediums a language, semaphore ? Morse code ? they are alternative representations of words and letters, even concepts too... It was said a true definition of language is a dictionary, however dictionaries do not describe grammar, just words. Like others I have never seen sign grammar written down, fully described, when you ask they suggest this is a silly question... it's sign language, so ? if it has a grammar there must be a structure to it somewhere other than "Ask a deaf person"... or "It's a concept, you can't base it on English Grammar.. you can't write it down..." you just go around in circles....
There are ways to document ASL signs and there are ASL grammar rules documented in quite a few different places.
Look at all of the work that Ceil Lucas and Clayton Valli did. Robert Johnson and Scott Liddell have done alot of work on linguistic features of ASL, building on Stokoe's work. MJ Bienvenu has published several books about ASL, ASL grammar, and ASL Syntax. Signing Naturally, parts one, two, and three all discuss ASL grammar.
How the heck can you say that you've never seen ASL grammar written down?
Another thing is that ASL is a non-linear language, so grammar is not as strictly delegated as it is in linear languages, such as English.
Yet, even in English texts that discuss grammar, there are contradictions.
Of course, Spencer, this is the "comment" section..and as such I tend to write the way I would speak. ;)
This is my observation and I am a native signer. I'm just saying, when you have time, do watch how others sign. Pay attention to professional speakers, ya know like keynote speakers at deaf conventions. You'll see most of them do sign ASL in English order. Wow. English order!
Then you haven't seen enough presenters. I've seen plenty of Deaf keynote speakers and Deaf workshop presenters sign in ASL, following ASL grammatical rules.
I am going to give a different perspective of what I think is the problem. It is all about marketing. Most oralist organizations had done great job spreading information about their organization; nevertheless, the "Deaf” organizations need to become more visible within the hearing world. Self-segregation notions need to cease. It is also funny when a person accused an oralist or a hard-of-hearing person of being an audist. What they need is a big mirror, and takes a real good look, also, will see a real/true audist. We are D/deaf and do not have to act like one also it is best to be “yourself.” When was the last time that you were “yourself?”
-Stephen Hardy
MM, take a look at signwriting and you can write and record ASL on paper. The website is: http://www.signwriting.org/
I don't see the point really to be honest, sign is a visual language and a more efficient system of writing is available deaf can already use. Even Paddy Ladd used it. Unless deaf are educated in this written form it will be a curiosity nothing more. They tried it in BSL too, never caught on too obscure....
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